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Oct 3, 2024
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I'm confused. Do you not understand the horrific, racist propaganda couched in the title of your post? or do you just not mind it?
Oct 4, 2024
danhakimi Hello Dan. Could you please enlighten us on what is "horrific" or "racist" about standing in solidarity with the Palestinian struggle? A nation of people that for years, have fought to be free of occupation, free of Israeli apartheid and the right to return to their motherland?
Oct 8, 2024
caffy You're expressing "solidarity" with the movement to erase my people from our only homeland. Their struggle to take over our motherland away from us is, obviously, horrific and racist. If they were ever open to living with us, they might have wanted to find a leader in the past 100+ years who expressed that willingness instead of trying to eradicate millions of Jews.
I hope for peace. But as long as you demand the genocide of my people, that peace will be out of reach.
caffy Oh, and by the way, the most common and earliest version of that saying in Arabic has nothing to do with freedom; it specifies that the land is Arab land. Another version of the phrase specifies that the land is Muslim land. In either event, the phrase is actively directed at the exclusion of Jews and either ethnic or theocratic dominance, as we see across the Middle East. So don't come back and pretend that it is consistent with coexistence of any kind.
danhakimi Hi Dan. Thanks for your response.
When we as a people, express the phrase "From the River to the Sea, Palestine will be Free" these words are not uttered in vain.I want to get one thing clear, to wish for the well-being and freedom of Palestinians does NOT equate to the ill-wishing or eradication of Jews and if you believe that to be true, I want you to dig inwards as to why that is.
Before the establishment of the State of Israel, Palestine's inhabitants practised different religions, came from other cultures, ethnicities and they co-existed in PEACE. The livelihoods of ALL inhabitants were respected.
Following the Balfour Declaration, signed off by the British, this gave Jews looking to establish their promised land the permission to do so in Palestine. As humans, we all deserve to have a land to which we can call home, but the error in the establishment of Israel was the disregard of the inhabitants (Palestinians) and the brute force and violence by which they acquired their land. This is known as the Nakba (Arabic for Catastrophe), where thousands upon thousands of Palestinians were massacred and displaced from their homes.
Your tone suggests that Palestinians possess the agency and means to carry out a genocide, or have the power to decide how they exist alongside Jews. They don't. They have been stripped of even basic human rights. To spread this rhetoric is to completely ignore what we are currently witnessing in Gaza, a genocide of Palestinians, which works to eradicate their existence and achieve Israel's aims of expansion and ethnic cleansing.
To recognise that Palestinians have, over the past 100 years, been treated as subhuman, stripped of their self-determination and are currently, living in segregation, in the land in which they were born is essential. We cannot discuss the Israel - Palestine conflict without context, without educating ourselves on the history.
Oct 9, 2024
danhakimi I beg you do your research... 'from the river to the sea' is a phrase used by BOTH Israelis and Palestinians - the former to assert sovereignty and the latter to assert their human rights in their homeland. The founding charter of Likud (Netanyahu's party) uses the phrase to assert their right to found a Jewish supremacist state on top of Palestine. Since September 2023, Netanyahu has publicly used maps which outline Israel's borders as all the land between the Jordan river and the Mediterranean Sea. In the West the phrase has been
misrepresented as an anti-Semitic dog whistle when in fact it's used widely by Palestine activists as a reactionary assertion of their right to not live under oppression, as second class citizens, in their own lands. It's an act of resistance against Zionist expansionism and apartheid. Itβs not calling for genocide, but if it was it would be extremely hypocritical for you to have a problem with Palestinians using the phrase but be fine with Israelis doing so - that would suggest you think incitements to genocide are fine as long as itβs not against you. Please do some research into the regime that you're defending because the double standard is insane.
Oct 9, 2024
caffy Your revisionist history is not going to fool anybody. Jews were constantly subjugated, banned on-and-off, prevented from building synagogues for *over a thousand years*, and often subjected to Dhimmi status or killed in pogroms:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1834_looting_of_Safed
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hurva_Synagogue
https://www.reddit.com/r/Jewish/comments/1c4jtkk/the_narrative_that_weve_forgotten/
Zionists began by purchasing land from Arab landowners. The Arabs did not like the idea that they might have to answer to Jews, or that there might be Jews in their neighborhoods. This is why they began a wave of launching pogrom after pogrom against Jews. The latest wave of violence unambiguously dates back to Arab-initated aggression (see here, 1920), and extremist Jewish groups did not respond in kind for nearly 20 years (first Irgun attack in 1939):
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_killings_and_massacres_in_Mandatory_Palestine
Meanwhile, in 1936, Arabs literally launched a war against the British specifically to ban Jewish immigration:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1936%E2%80%931939_Arab_revolt_in_Palestine
They succeeded, securing a near-ban of Jews from the British in 1939:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_Paper_of_1939
(meanwhile, Palestinians now claim to have been extremely generous to Jews fleeing the Holocaust. They literally fought a war to minimize Jewish immigration *and* land purchases *and* minimize any chance that Jews ever have a stake in their own homeland that was not subject to the dominion of a permanent Arab majority enforced by law)
This continued until the UN *had* to push a partition plan. The Jews were interested in negotiating *every* partition, from the moment when England offered them 20% of "cis-Jordan" ("Palestine" until the establishment of the British Mandate also included "trans-Jordan," or what you now no as Jordan, and there was no real cultural distinction between "Palestinians" and "Jordanians" as we now know them). But Arabs were *never* willing to give Jews an inch, or allow them equal protection under the law with an Arab majority (the Quran does not allow this, but rather requires subjugation of non-Muslims on "Muslim Land").
Accordingly, when Jews accepted the partition plan and declared independence from the British over their own portion, all of the surrounding Arab nations *immediately* attacked. Day one. Israel had not kicked anybody out at this time, but many Arabs began fleeing from the war.
The war was hell, of course, as all war is. The Jewish groups were not innocent as they fought off the Arab militaries and paramilitaries; they did expel a portion of the Arabs who claim to have been expelled, and did conduct massacres in some towns. This was a horrid crime in a *series* of horrid crimes that, once again, clearly started with Arab aggression. Alongside the "Nakba," roughly 8-900,000 Jews were expelled from their own homes in the Middle East, and although we would love to return in peace, we are no longer welcome anywhere near those homes, *except* for our one common homeland, Israel.
The Palestinian people do have the agency and means by which to *attempt* a genocide, as clearly shown on October 7th. They may not have succeeded in eradicating the Jewish people, but that is little comfort; their elected representatives not only make constant declarations that all Jews, within Israel and without, must be killed, but take active steps towards this end. They killed Holocaust survivors, they killed babies, they took a nine-month-old *hostage*. And they repeatedly insist: they will do it again, and again, and again, for as long as they can. Are these the people who you want to roam freely through the land currently inhabited by *most* of the world's Jews? Do you really believe that could end in anything other than genocide?
Even if they weren't a real threat to the Jewish people: you would support them until they did have that degree of agency, without demanding a commitment to peace? You would support them not only until they could control their own territory, but until they could take over our homeland, establish a majority, and... what, change their minds about killing us, and start singing kumbaya? What reason do you have to think that after constant declarations that peace was unacceptable and that we must all die, they will suddenly want to coexist in harmony as soon as they have the power to kill millions?
Why didn't Abbas pursue the Olmert proposal? Was that peace not good enough?
I want peace with Palestinians. In the real world, that means a two state solution, an end to settlement expansion, an end to terrorist attacks against innocent civilians, and an actual agent of the Palestinian people who is willing to consider it.
